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Showing Stop Orders in Ninja/cause you to be taken out
Started:April 8th, 2012 (07:13 PM) by Rad4633 Views / Replies:3,560 / 26
Last Reply:January 15th, 2014 (06:51 PM) Attachments:1

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Showing Stop Orders in Ninja/cause you to be taken out

Old April 9th, 2012, 03:35 PM   #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
Denver, CO
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Instrument: ES
 
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djkiwi View Post
I am still unclear with Zenfire, if the price dropped below the red stop line during the outage are you saying I would have been stopped out but the 3 targets would still be live as naked open orders until I canceled them manually through Ninjatrader?

Your understanding is correct. They would need to be manually cancelled in NinjaTrader or, if for some reason you were unable to connect you would need to call your broker and have them cancel the orders.



djkiwi View Post
So on this one, if Target one had been hit during the outage then the remaining stops for Targets 2 and 3 would remain where they were prior to the reconnection due to them being on their servers at that point. The stops would only move to breakeven for both IB and Zenfire ONLY on reconnection?

Your understanding is correct since the ATM logic that automatically moves your stop to breakeven is a function of NinjaTrader and not the broker/exchange servers.

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Old April 9th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
Identify Evaluate Execute
Mercer Island WA
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: ninjatrader/Strategy Desk/TOS
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG/IB/TD/Lightspeed
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OCO

Hi Fat Tails, thanks for your detailed post on this earlier. Based on what you wrote and also Ninjatrader's comments it appears that the treatment of stops may not be the main issue.

It appears the stops are doing their job but the bigger issue is original targets that were not cancelled become naked buy orders once the stop has been triggered. This now explains the following issues I have experienced occasionally:

1. Gone to bed with overnight long positions with stops and targets.
2. While I was asleep at some point an outage occurred and during that time the stop triggered.
3. After the stop triggered the market spiked and triggered the original targets placing me in naked long positions.
4. Got up in the morning to see a big drop in the market with naked long positions underwater.

Based on all of this, it appears the only broker capable of protecting traders from this risk is IB. Of course the IB data feed is not the best but I saw your idea on another thread where you connect first with Kinect as the data feed and then connect using IB. This way you can get clean bid/ask data and then use IB to do the brokerage. People also complain about the poor IB customer service. Personally I have found them ok. Nothing great but ok. In any case I would prefer to have ok customer service and my risks protected than say another broker that has great customer service but I'm down $10k in the morning because their systems cannot mitigate trader risks by cancelling simple orders.

Obviously this is not an issue for people who sit at their screens throughout the duration of a trade as they can see the outage and make a decision what to do about it. This issue affects overnight and swing traders.

If you do this would you recommend the Kinect IB approach?
- Do you have errors whereby you put an order like 2 contracts short 6E through ninja but look in IB and find out it is 2 contracts long? ie Do you experience problems whereby the order entry from Ninja differs from the filled position between IB and the exchange?
- Are you satisfied with the fills and the fill prices from IB?

Thanks in advance
DJ

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Old April 9th, 2012, 06:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Portland, OR
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
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You can try either only setting a stop in overnight trades or an OCO order so that doesn't happen again.

Strategy ≥ Money
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Old April 9th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #14 (permalink)
Elite Member
Bala, PA, USA
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus, IB
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djkiwi View Post
Hi Fat Tails, thanks for your detailed post on this earlier. Based on what you wrote and also Ninjatrader's comments it appears that the treatment of stops may not be the main issue.

It appears the stops are doing their job but the bigger issue is original targets that were not cancelled become naked buy orders once the stop has been triggered. This now explains the following issues I have experienced occasionally:

1. Gone to bed with overnight long positions with stops and targets.
2. While I was asleep at some point an outage occurred and during that time the stop triggered.
3. After the stop triggered the market spiked and triggered the original targets placing me in naked long positions.
4. Got up in the morning to see a big drop in the market with naked long positions underwater.

Based on all of this, it appears the only broker capable of protecting traders from this risk is IB. Of course the IB data feed is not the best but I saw your idea on another thread where you connect first with Kinect as the data feed and then connect using IB. This way you can get clean bid/ask data and then use IB to do the brokerage. People also complain about the poor IB customer service. Personally I have found them ok. Nothing great but ok. In any case I would prefer to have ok customer service and my risks protected than say another broker that has great customer service but I'm down $10k in the morning because their systems cannot mitigate trader risks by cancelling simple orders.

Obviously this is not an issue for people who sit at their screens throughout the duration of a trade as they can see the outage and make a decision what to do about it. This issue affects overnight and swing traders.

If you do this would you recommend the Kinect IB approach?
- Do you have errors whereby you put an order like 2 contracts short 6E through ninja but look in IB and find out it is 2 contracts long? ie Do you experience problems whereby the order entry from Ninja differs from the filled position between IB and the exchange?
- Are you satisfied with the fills and the fill prices from IB?

Thanks in advance
DJ

Are you trading stocks of futures? It's been a while, so I don't know if this is still the case, but I remember something like IB does not execute market orders outside of normal trading hours for stocks. So, if your stop is triggered in the middle of the night and turns into a market order, the resulting market order would not be executed and you will remain in that position until the next market open. I think they had some flags to allow triggers after market etc., but I could never get them to work.

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Old April 9th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Berlin, Europe
 
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Platform: NinjaTrader, MultiCharts
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
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djkiwi View Post
Based on all of this, it appears the only broker capable of protecting traders from this risk is IB. Of course the IB data feed is not the best but I saw your idea on another thread where you connect first with Kinect as the data feed and then connect using IB. This way you can get clean bid/ask data and then use IB to do the brokerage. People also complain about the poor IB customer service. Personally I have found them ok. Nothing great but ok. In any case I would prefer to have ok customer service and my risks protected than say another broker that has great customer service but I'm down $10k in the morning because their systems cannot mitigate trader risks by cancelling simple orders.

If you do this would you recommend the Kinect IB approach?
- Do you have errors whereby you put an order like 2 contracts short 6E through ninja but look in IB and find out it is 2 contracts long? ie Do you experience problems whereby the order entry from Ninja differs from the filled position between IB and the exchange?
- Are you satisfied with the fills and the fill prices from IB?

Thanks in advance

4. Got up in the morning to see a big drop in the market with naked long positions underwater.

Based on all of this, it appears the only broker capable of protecting traders from this risk is IB. Of course the IB data feed is not the best but I saw your idea on another thread where you connect first with Kinect as the data feed and then connect using IB. This way you can get clean bid/ask data and then use IB to do the brokerage. People also complain about the poor IB customer service. Personally I have found them ok. Nothing great but ok. In any case I would prefer to have ok customer service and my risks protected than say another broker that has great customer service but I'm down $10k in the morning because their systems cannot mitigate trader risks by cancelling simple orders.

Obviously this is not an issue for people who sit at their screens throughout the duration of a trade as they can see the outage and make a decision what to do about it. This issue affects overnight and swing traders.

If you do this would you recommend the Kinect IB approach?
- Do you have errors whereby you put an order like 2 contracts short 6E through ninja but look in IB and find out it is 2 contracts long? ie Do you experience problems whereby the order entry from Ninja differs from the filled position between IB and the exchange?
- Are you satisfied with the fills and the fill prices from IB?

Thanks in advance
DJ

I am happy with the combination Kinetick/Interactive Brokers. All you need to do is to first-connect to Kinetick, then second-connect to IB. However, I prefer to trade in front of my screens and do not let any positions open overnight. And I do not have any experience with power outages, as the last power outage that I remember is over 20 years ago. We don't have them here very often.

But as you said, IB manages OCO orders via their servers, which is an advantage, if you are disconnected from your broker. The connection from IB servers to the exchange is pretty reliable. I remember that last year there was a breakdown of a transatlantic cable, and both my IP providers were not able anymore to connect to US servers. However, the datafeed / broker connection to CME via IB was not affected, as I was logged onto the Swiss server of IB, which were still safely connected to CME.

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Old April 9th, 2012, 10:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Taipei
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
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djkiwi View Post
Hi Fat Tails, thanks for your detailed post on this earlier. Based on what you wrote and also Ninjatrader's comments it appears that the treatment of stops may not be the main issue.

Obviously this is not an issue for people who sit at their screens throughout the duration of a trade as they can see the outage and make a decision what to do about it. This issue affects overnight and swing traders.

If you do this would you recommend the Kinect IB approach?
- Do you have errors whereby you put an order like 2 contracts short 6E through ninja but look in IB and find out it is 2 contracts long? ie Do you experience problems whereby the order entry from Ninja differs from the filled position between IB and the exchange?
- Are you satisfied with the fills and the fill prices from IB?

Thanks in advance
DJ

Since you are away from your screen, I would recommend using a VPS ( contact @sam028 ) if you are not going to be in front of your screen. If you were in front of your screen, you would have been able to call your broker if you saw the outage.

Math. A gateway drug to reality.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 11:01 PM   #17 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Bangkok
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja, Tradestation, TWS
Favorite Instrument: ES
 
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Fat Tails View Post
I am happy with the combination Kinetick/Interactive Brokers. All you need to do is to first-connect to Kinetick, then second-connect to IB. However, I prefer to trade in front of my screens and do not let any positions open overnight. And I do not have any experience with power outages, as the last power outage that I remember is over 20 years ago. We don't have them here very often.

But as you said, IB manages OCO orders via their servers, which is an advantage, if you are disconnected from your broker. The connection from IB servers to the exchange is pretty reliable. I remember that last year there was a breakdown of a transatlantic cable, and both my IP providers were not able anymore to connect to US servers. However, the datafeed / broker connection to CME via IB was not affected, as I was logged onto the Swiss server of IB, which were still safely connected to CME.

+1

I LOVE the IB thing with OCO and I couldn't bear to have it any other way.

Out in Bangkok we do have our fair share of internet/power outages, although it's been a while since I had one. My PC has done a few random reboots though and I don't even pick up the phone if it happens when I'm in a trade as I always have an OCO on for this very reason.

I know IB commissions aren't the best but it really is a trouble-free service in my opinion.

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Old April 10th, 2012, 12:44 AM   #18 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Houston,Tx
 
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Broker/Data: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
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Problem....


djkiwi View Post

1. Gone to bed with overnight long positions with stops and targets.
2. While I was asleep at some point an outage occurred and during that time the stop triggered.
3. After the stop triggered the market spiked and triggered the original targets placing me in naked long positions.
4. Got up in the morning to see a big drop in the market with naked long positions underwater.

Problem Solved ...


djkiwi View Post

Obviously this is not an issue for people who sit at their screens throughout the duration of a trade as they can see the outage and make a decision what to do about it.

Code

If (not )
{

Hire some one else to ...

}

else

{

Hook up a big enough computer speaker so that the alarm wakes you up

}


I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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Old April 10th, 2012, 02:20 AM   #19 (permalink)
Identify Evaluate Execute
Mercer Island WA
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: ninjatrader/Strategy Desk/TOS
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG/IB/TD/Lightspeed
Favorite Instrument: TF/NQ/ES/Stocks
 
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IB

Thanks for the input guys that helps alot. I'm not too worried about commissions as I've cut down my number of trades by 80%. One annoying thing with IB is it logs you off every day. Then you have to shut down ninja trader and then start it back up again. Anyway of getting around this PITA anyone has found?

Cheers
DJ

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Old April 10th, 2012, 02:48 AM   #20 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Bangkok
 
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djkiwi View Post
Thanks for the input guys that helps alot. I'm not too worried about commissions as I've cut down my number of trades by 80%. One annoying thing with IB is it logs you off every day. Then you have to shut down ninja trader and then start it back up again. Anyway of getting around this PITA anyone has found?

Cheers
DJ

No need to shut down Ninja when IB logs off - just re-connect...

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