NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





Is Trend Really Your Friend?


Discussion in Traders Hideout

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one Tunah with 16 posts (5 thanks)
    2. looks_two tigertrader with 11 posts (30 thanks)
    3. looks_3 aligator with 10 posts (2 thanks)
    4. looks_4 wldman with 6 posts (14 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one tigertrader with 2.7 thanks per post
    2. looks_two wldman with 2.3 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 addchild with 2 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 Tunah with 0.3 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 25,471 views
    2. thumb_up 62 thanks given
    3. group 10 followers
    1. forum 52 posts
    2. attach_file 5 attachments




 
Search this Thread

Is Trend Really Your Friend?

  #1 (permalink)
 
aligator's Avatar
 aligator 
Las Vegas, NV
Legendary Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Abacus, Slide Rule, HP-65
Trading: Futures, Stocks, Options
Posts: 3,620 since Aug 2010
Thanks Given: 1,071
Thanks Received: 5,992

Not if the markets are trending only 20-30 percent of the time. For day trading, one might do heck of lot better for his time and effort to learn trading non-trending periods of markets at 70-80 percent of the time.

Thinking of most day traders frequently getting whipsawed in trending markets, the trend could be their worst enemy. But of course, that is not what the non-trading gurus would pontificate.

Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Started this thread Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
REcommedations for programming help
Sierra Chart
Exit Strategy
NinjaTrader
How to apply profiles
Traders Hideout
Increase in trading performance by 75%
The Elite Circle
NT7 Indicator Script Troubleshooting - Camarilla Pivots
NinjaTrader
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on NexusFi
Just another trading journal: PA, Wyckoff & Trends
33 thanks
Tao te Trade: way of the WLD
24 thanks
My NQ Trading Journal
14 thanks
HumbleTraders next chapter
11 thanks
GFIs1 1 DAX trade per day journal
11 thanks
  #3 (permalink)
 
Massive l's Avatar
 Massive l 
OR/USA
Legendary /NQ Trader
 
Experience: None
Posts: 2,129 since Mar 2011
Thanks Given: 1,859
Thanks Received: 5,106


The trend is my friend at the end

Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)
 dnkhoward2 
Dover, Fl
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader 8, Oanda
Trading: YM, Currencies
Posts: 158 since Mar 2013
Thanks Given: 864
Thanks Received: 167

In my opinion the trend is not your friend.

I have to let multiple tick charts and time based charts decipher what the trend is and which way to trade.

I use 233,510,987,1597,2584,4181 tick charts along with 5, 15, 240 min. and a daily chart. A 14 period CCI with a 13 period EMA with the imput series set on Heiken Ashi seems to keep me out of trouble. It shows me when the instrument is overbought or oversold and it doesnt always line up with the trend.

Sorry to be so long winded about it.

Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)
 
aligator's Avatar
 aligator 
Las Vegas, NV
Legendary Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Abacus, Slide Rule, HP-65
Trading: Futures, Stocks, Options
Posts: 3,620 since Aug 2010
Thanks Given: 1,071
Thanks Received: 5,992


Massive l View Post
The trend is my friend at the end

The operative words were for "Day Trading." not investment or swing trading (Although trend may no longer be relevant at all in these modern markets).

Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Started this thread Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)
 
bd92154's Avatar
 bd92154 
San Diego
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader/Think or Swim
Broker: TDA/Interactive Brokers/ Data Feed TDA & IBK ( Dropped Kinetick)
Trading: Stocks NASDAQ
Posts: 1,058 since May 2011
Thanks Given: 1,542
Thanks Received: 448


aligator View Post
Not if the markets are trending only 20-30 percent of the time. For day trading, one might do heck of lot better for his time and effort to learn trading non-trending periods of markets at 70-80 percent of the time.

Thinking of most day traders frequently getting whipsawed in trending markets, the trend could be their worst enemy. But of course, that is not what the non-trading gurus would pontificate.

Is it the trend or the stops frequently getting whipsawed that are not the "friend?"

Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)
 
Massive l's Avatar
 Massive l 
OR/USA
Legendary /NQ Trader
 
Experience: None
Posts: 2,129 since Mar 2011
Thanks Given: 1,859
Thanks Received: 5,106


aligator View Post
The operative words were for "Day Trading." not investment or swing trading (Although trend may no longer be relevant at all in these modern markets).

We use the term "swing" to describe trading from a few weeks to months to years.
However, swing entries are typically near peaks and valleys. The same rotations and ebb and flow on a 5 minute chart
are happening on a daily chart. The same "swing" strategy used on a higher time frame can also be implemented in the
exact same fashion on a smaller time frame. 1 minute has a "trend" the same way a D1 has a "trend".
The former of course, is simply smaller, and the rotations play out much quicker.

[img]https://nexusfi.com/v/wt7dty.png[/img]
My journal references this trade.

Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)
 
tigertrader's Avatar
 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
Legendary Market Wizard
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ES, ZB
Posts: 6,482 since Jul 2010
Thanks Given: 6,662
Thanks Received: 36,258


aligator View Post
The operative words were for "Day Trading." not investment or swing trading (Although trend may no longer be relevant at all in these modern markets).

If the day is a trend-day then the trend is certainly you're friend. If the day is range day, its a moot point really, because , there isn't a trend. You trade the respective types of days differently.

That being said there are those who have a pathological aversion to trends, i.e., Victor Niederhoffer, those who laud the virtues of trend following, i.e., Michael Covel, and those who put their money where their mouth is and actually back up their claims via actual trading results, i.e., William Eckhardt.

Vic will go as far as to say that there is no empirical proof that trends exist, that is; there is not a positive serial correlation between prices. But if we look at trends as simply the sequential processing of asymmetric information, we can see how "trends" might be created.

In order to move a price, the market requires new information. And this new information takes time to disseminate among market participants. And during this period of dissemination and acceptance of a new perception, prices will appear to trend. If you are the first person to acquire and understand this new information, you are said to be forward looking. If you are the second or third person to realize that there is new information, you are called a trend follower. And if you instinctively fade this perception as it disseminates through the market, you are called a contrarian. Strictly speaking, a true contrarian, like a stopped clock, is right twice a day. And while this new information is disseminating through the market, there are obviously many opportunities to profit.

Ultimately, however, a trend-follower is economically equivalent to a person who buys synthetic options or volatility. And a mean-revision trader is economically equivalent to a person who sells synthetic options or volatility. Transaction costs notwithstanding, unless one has superior information, there is no a priori reason to believe that selling synthetic options should, over a career, be more profitable than buying synthetic options. However, the equity profile of an options seller is that of many small profits and a few big losses. Whereas the equity profile of an options buyer is that of many small losses with a few big gains.

Por ejemplo:

Been short the ES all day, although I have a long bond position against it. For now at least the trend-is-my -friend.
If today was a range day instead of a " momentum " down day, I would be trading it much differently.


Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #9 (permalink)
 ghl123 
London/UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Stocks, ES
Posts: 68 since May 2013
Thanks Given: 84
Thanks Received: 40

Your rules are your friends, trust me! Nothing else is your friend.

You need a proof? If the trend is your friend then try to enter in the end of the trend and see what happens.

Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)
 
squ1d's Avatar
 squ1d 
Houston, TX/US
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader, T4, RightEdge
Trading: Oil
Posts: 96 since Feb 2013
Thanks Given: 27
Thanks Received: 84



tigertrader View Post
Ultimately, however, a trend-follower is economically equivalent to a person who buys synthetic options or volatility. And a mean-revision trader is economically equivalent to a person who sells synthetic options or volatility. Transaction costs notwithstanding, unless one has superior information, there is no a priori reason to believe that selling synthetic options should, over a career, be more profitable than buying synthetic options. However, the equity profile of an options seller is that of many small profits and a few big losses. Whereas the equity profile of an options buyer is that of many small losses with a few big gains.


I thought I was the only one that realized this :P

One interesting thing though, to keep in mind, is that some of the greatest option traders used to have the following trading profile:

1) Short near-term options <- lots of small winners
2) Long long-dated options <- some home-runs

It would be interesting to see how one could replicate this as a day-trader.... Maybe trading the mean-reversion on a bigger time-frame trend-following position?

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:




Last Updated on July 18, 2017


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts