Welcome to NexusFi: the best trading community on the planet, with over 150,000 members Sign Up Now for Free
Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
Quality education from leading professional traders
We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community. It's free for basic access, or support us by becoming an Elite Member -- see if you qualify for a discount below.
-- Big Mike, Site Administrator
(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)
You forgot Mack. Just curious, what makes these people distinct from the people on YouTube? I can see only one common denominator and that's they all make an income from books, courses, trade rooms, events or ads. Right?
"Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n’y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n’y a plus rien à retrancher."
-Antoine de Saint Exupéry
No, indeed not: the chaffinch probably has its natural habitat only in the English-speaking world of "imperial" measurements. Anywhere else, I think the "chaffcentimeter" might be the equivalent you're looking for.
Not sure. Maybe my impression that after trading for a living for decades, they each wrote a book or two, rather than being mostly professional marketers dependant primarily on selling stuff, building mailing lists, attracting traffic to videos, and so on?
I am very inexperienced but I see almost no similarities and very many contrasts.
Joe Ross did not, as far as I know, have any courses, a trading room, a Youtube channel or any events.
Bob Volman does not, as far as I know, have any courses, a trading room, a Youtube channel or any events.
Probably you know much more than I do, though. Maybe in future I will change my mind and decide that my initial impressions and all the advice I was given by people I know to be trading for their livings was misguided and mistaken.
Joe Ross has passed away, but the brand name is still fully exploited commercially. We now have 'professional traders' Andy Jordan and Marco Mayer using the Joe Ross legacy for selling private mentoring, (e)books, webinars and even signals.
Bob Volman is the only one not (cross) selling anything. He only wrote two books which I liked a lot.
Although the trading scene is a shady world and very commercial I think reading books are among the best ways to learn. But nothing beats practice and experience.
You are fortunate to have friends to talk to and learn from about the markets and trading. For most people it is an entirely solitary job. Hence, I think, the need for information that seems even remotely usable (which often is not.)
I have often thought that no one can understand Brooks. I really tried, and broke my head trying. As well as lost my patience with him many times. There is probably something there, but I never could figure it out. I do know there are traders who do very well with it. I don't know the other authors you mention, although they are often mentioned by price action traders here. There are certainly price action traders who post on this forum, some of whom are at least somewhat Brooks-like, and some do well. It is valuable to understand that a lot of things work well (and a lot don't), and most of the many good things have many practitioners who can use them well, and many, many more who earnestly try to and can't. Trading is very individual, and self-management and risk/money management is at least as important as technique (or more) much of the time.
The question of books vs. online material is interesting. Probably it is harder to put together a book than a sales presentation online and so more thought goes into it and fewer try it, but I have read many trading books that had little value also.
A big part of it, and of the entire "how to learn" question is probably that you really can't learn trading from someone else, no matter who they are or how much they know or even how well they trade. You can learn about trading, at least as they see it. That's a start, but it's not the same.
It's probably like tennis (which I have never played, so I don't really know ) -- someone else can help you, but you need to have a racket in your hand and to actually play it. Books or anything else that is essentially conceptual may be useful, but only so much. There's not much worthwhile coaching in trading, unlike tennis, and that's a huge difference. Trading is one of the few things that you have to learn mainly on your own (even with friends.)
This is the best possible advice, and probably the only kind of advice that will help that much. I hope you have, or plan to have, an online trading platform so you can at least observe the actual market as it happens. (Talk to your friends about suggestions.) Most or all platforms will have a simulated trading feature that will let you enter practice trades and see how they turn out. This is far beyond anything you will get from a book or a course. It also introduces you to the most important thing about trading -- that you have to make trades that may not work out, and you have to do it under time pressure, and you will never be certain of the outcome until it has happened.
Once you have even an idea of a trading method, working with it using actual price as it changes in front of you is entirely different.
Another possible idea would be to try one of the evaluation prop firms. The idea would not be "Oh wow, they'll make me money," but "wow, I'll practice trading." (I have no recommendations, and I think that "getting funded" is less the right goal than "learning how to trade." There is a lot of unrealism by people who look to these firms as the way they will make their millions, and less recognition of what it takes to learn to just make a profit, of any size.)
There is a big drawback to sim trading and prop firm evaluation trading, which is that it's still not with your real money, so you don't have any actual risk, but it is closer to reality. I suggest giving it a try, if you aren't already, as soon as you feel ready for it. (You will find that you weren't actually ready, but that's why it's important to move away from purely conceptual learning as soon as you can. It's the only way to really understand the concepts.) Another idea would be, if you have the funds to really put some at risk, to use real money in a real account. If you start with your own funds, try the micro contracts such as MES first -- you will lose less money that way. (And you will lose money at first. Everyone does.) Also, unless you are out for the thrill of it (a good way to lose faster), don't start with highly volatile contracts like NQ or even MNQ. The slow-moving boring old ES or MES will move plenty fast when you suddenly have to know what to do, and you don't.
Also, you could look over other peoples' trade journals on this forum. You will see what they are struggling with, which is usually the same as you. You might want to start a trade journal here. Many people find the accountability gets them to recognize their mistakes easier and keeps them more mindful of their rules when it matters most, in a trade.
But however you can, get in front of a screen and spend the time it takes. It will take more than you think, most likely.
Everyone's path is different, so regard any advice as a mere suggestion, even any of this.
Good luck.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
There are always exceptions (e.g. I think Joe Ross’s work was originally self-published) and there’s always a lot of personal opinion involved (e.g. personally, I think most of Steve Nison’s very popular books are awful), but overall there’s also maybe some kind of quality control argument behind Maria’s point above: anyone can put anything on Youtube with absolutely no peer-review, editorial processes, or quality control at all, but that tends perhaps not to be quite so true of books issued by established publishing houses (e.g. Wiley), especially the ones often re-printed many times over years or decades of being recommended by experts. They are collectively perhaps "vouched for" in a way Youtube content is usually not.
One thing that might help with Brooks or any price action trader is the classic book Technical Analysis of Stock Trends by Robert D. Edwards and John Magee. This is, by now, a very old book (first edition is 1948). It has been updated periodically. The version on my bookcase is the fifth edition, copyright 1966 (I bought it somewhat later . ) I found more current editions on Google and Amazon just now. It is not cheap, and is not an easy read either, but it is a thorough discussion of the basic "chart patterns" of a certain type of technical analysis: things like double tops and bottoms, head and shoulders, triangles, wedges, support and resistance, gaps, trendlines and channels, and all of that.
Many people think these have no value, which probably is like other things, where traders try something and it doesn't succeed for them, as they apply it, so they move on. But nothing is the "only" or "true and complete" answer, and I am happy to be able to see these things in a chart, although not necessarily by themselves.
If you're into Brooks and the other price action writers, all this may help to understand their thinking. Brooks has mentioned the book many times, and there's a mention in the Wikipedia article on price action trading, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_action_trading. (Scan down to "Analytical Process." in the article.)
You can certainly also find a lot on these topics in other places, but this is some of the source material and may help fill in some gaps.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
People on the forum write a lot about educators - the same names pop up every time - but almost never about real traders.
With real traders I don't mean ex-floor traders. They struggle as hard, or maybe even harder, to make screen trading work with consequence that the ones who didn't find another occupation quite often use their story and background to sell you into something. They belong to the educator business. People often don't seem to realize that floor trading is completely different from upstairs-/screen trading (Floored).
Anyways, aspirant retail traders are on a never ending search on how to become profitable through trading from home which has become possible with the rise of the Internet. I mean the trading from home has become possible, profitability is a whole different story.
In search of a way to become profitable they spend tons of money on a flourishing education industry where millions are made with selling all kind of products, but not with trading.
Striking is that, although retail traders spend tons of money and time on education, the succes rate is almost zero.
Why spend money on educators and not look at real traders?
Maybe because 1. we don't know who they are? Or maybe because 2. real traders don't advertise/promote/marketing themselves and don't offer courses. Without any course or manual where they describe in detail what they do, how can we learn?
Who are the real traders?
Some real traders are, in random order: Victor Niederhoffer, Stanley Druckenmiller, Paul Tudor Jones, George Soros, Steven Cohen, Paul Rotter, Jim Simons, Ray Dalio, Marty Schwartz, Bruce Kovner, Ed Seykota, Michael Marcus, Michael Burry, Navinder Singh Sarao, Tony Crabel.
These people all have something in common, they made fortunes out of nothing with trading and none of them has a course although some are written about or are featured in a documentary. Some wrote a book.
Could it be that there is much more to learn by watching/studying all available information about these traders?
Initially the combination was about 50% of beneficial advancement came from mentors and 50% came from experience...usually a loss. Generally speaking, today folks that want to be your mentor are two things; 1) not folks with deep real experience of their own and 2) complete frauds. Most of my original mentors are either long out of the business or dead. Due to the new nature of participation, it is very hard to find reliable voices, much less real colleagues or mentors.
Almost all new progress now is acquired via pain of loss...from doing or persisting in stupid shit.
I really tried, and broke my head trying. As well as lost my patience with him many times. There is probably something there, but I never could figure it out. I do know there are traders who do very well with it. I don't know the other authors you mention, although they are often mentioned by price action traders here. There are certainly price action traders who post on this forum, some of whom are at least somewhat Brooks-like, and some do well. It is valuable to understand that a lot of things work well (and a lot don't), and most of the many good things have many practitioners who can use them well, and many, many more who earnestly try to and can't. Trading is very individual, and self-management and risk/
) -- someone else can help you, but you need to have a racket in your hand and to actually play it. Books or anything else that is essentially conceptual may be useful, but only so much. There's not much worthwhile coaching in trading, unlike tennis, and that's a huge difference. Trading is one of the few things that you have to learn mainly on your own (even with friends.)