Very interesting posts about Beth and her products. The only questions continue to be open what are we trying to gain?
Are we posting to stop Beth from selling? Would not happen!!! Free Market she can do what ever she would like
Are we posting to stop people from going to her site and offering well intentioned advise? Would not happen people still are going to go and continue to buy and she will make money.
There are always going to be just one other hopeful trader in the market looking to buy just one more tool hopping that something would make them trade better.
In me view and I repeat in my view by creating separate tread about Beth and by going back to the same subject we are creating unnecessary publicity for her site.
By constantly debating benefits or harm of her services we are awaking peoples curiosity and driving them to at list to look at what she has to offer. We are creating some Free Advertising fore some one that we do not feel deserve any of our attention.
Speaking from my own personal curiosity factor I might just buy her service for one month just to satisfy my need to know. She is going to make one additions sales just before XMass,
In discussions as the one we have on hand there is not right or wrong answer. Every one who has posted express their opinions and everyone is right. But at the end Beth is going to continue doing what she is doing!!!
I want as many newbie traders to go to her site and buy her product. They are all traders who are going to put money in my pocket when they trade that system. So overall, it's a win-win for Beth and for us. Those who buy the system will be learning the hard lessons that we all learned when we started trading. Right or wrong, that seems to be the natural order of things in trading.
I would never intentionally choose to harm anyone financially or physically/mentally etc.. I wish the best for Beth, but I do not wish to encourage others to take the same path. There is a high road and a higher road (judgement...) and to me, I hope she does not do too many people financial harm.
Per your system and wanting to spend some Holiday cash. Good for you, but charities really need your funds to feed families who probably need the money a bit more than Beth. So, I hope you take that into consideration or have so much to where you can do all of it.
Having very little capital for trading it really doesn't matter how good your system is.
(She not actually selling it - she's renting access to it. Selling it would be to sell all rights to the system and the investment she has made and the programming she paid for and her website and other startup costs)
I think we (here on the board) - all get it. (you'd be surprised).
And I agree with you, in general.
However, investment capital is a BIG factor in turning:
a system and/or
You are better off sharing it and building up some income from your monthly rentals until you have enough capital to trade with decent stops and ride out any heat in a trade.
So until she has share it long enough to build up:
$100,000 in trading capital
$5,000 /mo of monthly income
(these numbers as an example only), she is wiser to share it.
You are digressing into philosophy.
I agree with your statement generally - for some people (very small number.)
(Lornz, you are extrapolating what is "right" for you into what is "right" for others. Imposing your view of "what is right for me is right for eveyone" this mental re-framing of the world hurts you, IMHO. )
My schedule is: I get up, I work (on my systems/study/trading) and I go to sleep. Then rinse and repeat. It is utterly riduculous from any sort of balanced life - but it is what I must do ()I feel to overcome the enormous odds against me.
However in a realistic sense, most people can't apply this discipline.
not long enough to reach the pay-off zone.
From Dr. Gary's seminar:
the great pain of losing and then losing again and then losing again.
Lance Armstrong "I can suffer like no-one else can suffer."
Olympic skaters difference = They practised the really difficult moves, feel got hurt, did it again and again iced their bruises after practice, and got up at 4am and did it all over again for years and years and years.
4-5hrs a day of really deep practise not just being on the sim but thinking - what is happening, why, taking notes, seeing what worked and didn't, analyzing the set-ups and then doing it all over again for 4 (?) or more years.
If someone is retired - their home is paid for, they have more than enough retirement income, they have a balanced conservative portfolio (whatever that means in today's age) managed by an honest dedicated money management professional who truly cares about their responsibility (tougher that finding an honest mechanic you say? - I agree) and they want a pastime that is fun lively and more challenging than a crossword --
they could day trade.
For example, my mom is a bright woman.
She is up-to-date on what is happening finacially, economically, and with businesses - especially in the province where she lives. Being part Irish, she's a bit of a gambler in her heart.
She likes to have her "play" money. (I cringe when I her her say that!)
She used to lose about $30,000 -to $40,000 per year buying tech stocks especially if they are mentioned on CBC, in Canada, and even more so Quebec-based (she's a real "flag-waver"). It was brutal to watch. Ever year she had to top up her "play account" with another $40,000. Finally, I gave up and said:
"look if you're going to gamble just go to Vegas with Aunt J, take $5,000 gambling money, have fun take in the shows and go to the restaurants and it doesn't matter it you lose it all."
So for my mom and others like her:
having the fun of red lights, green lights
a set stop of $50 some days losing $50,
some days making $50 or $60 and
occasionally making $500 -she would be trilled.
She would be ecstatic!
She could chat with her friends on the phone - gush talker lingo and feel "with it"
(I'm assuming a daily total loss limit of say $75 and a "play" account (cringe!) of $20,000)
--0ook wayyyy too much typing for a weekend -- I need to focus and get my old XP going again - I hate this Windows 7 - crappy take for laptop..
lots more but actually do the math on the exercise Lornz - I have. You will find it worth your time - well worth your time...
The Main Point
Don't get into being negative and calling other people down.
Life is tough. And for many people very tough.
Focus on the good the light and the positive.
Look for the best in others and spread good positive energy in the world.
Try to make someone else's life better and brighter.
Spread kindness love and compassion.
See the good in others.
Overlook their weaknesses.
............I'm a slow typer so if you only read and benefit from the main point and take it into your heart it will enrich your life and those in your life.
(and no I'm not saying that you don't already do some of these things - just suggesting to you and reminding myself and to others, to place more focus on doing these things more often and with more depth of love and attention )--------------
have a nice weekend eveyone!
Good trading to everyone.
Last edited by aquarian1; December 17th, 2011 at 08:21 PM.
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If a system really works, then raising capital is not a problem. One could take out a loan, contact local investors or try one's luck on online trading fora. One could argue, of course, that it's actually safer to set up a site directed at beginning traders, and have 1000 unsophisticated subscribers, than it would be explaining the system in detail to professional investors. I did not have much capital when I started trading. I actually maxed out my credit cards to buy my first block of shares. It's not something I would recommend, but it worked for me. I had done a lot research before I started, though.
Judging by Beth's thread on this forum, I can't imagine she suddenly learned how to trade. I just hope she doesn't ruin any lives. NFT is a prime example of that...
I actually think philosophy is quite relevant. It has been instrumental to my trading success. I can agree that not all are suited for that kind of approach. I never advocated anyone to follow my path, I just stated what I have done. The few successful traders I have met have all been intelligent, well-read skeptics. I am also aware of scalping/momentum-/order flow trading kids right out of high school. That is more of a gift than something learned, though.
I have not met anyone truly successful that did not devote their entire lives (at least for a period time) to trading. It's something one needs to eat, sleep and breathe, I think. It's more of a lifestyle than a hobby.
If people, like your mother, wants to use the markets as entertainment, then who am I to judge?
But, as this is a trading forum, I am sure most people want to learn how to make money -- not just lose it at a slower pace.
In fact, it was one of the first thing I did when I started trading. I have always focused on building a system capable of sustaining a large number of contracts. Most people don't understand the power of compounding, but my whole trading is based on it. I also started scalping to be able to scale up faster, but that's another story.
You didn't really answer my question. It matters if you have a drawdown of 50 points intraweek, even if the end result is net +35. It affects the position sizing algorithm.
Last edited by Lornz; December 18th, 2011 at 07:29 AM.
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Good posts and debate issues. I'm leaning more on the side of Lornz' sentiment. I had stumbled on EZ color trading earlier this year before I joined this site having frequented ET previously. I had almost considered giving it a try and was put off at the high prices for renting indicators when I knew that there great indicators already free on NT support forum and soon after on BMT. Then I read wgreenie's thread and discovered to my surprise it was the same lady that did the free NT hosted webinar I attended. I was sick to my stomach and couldn't help but feel some anger. Sure she had gone through a newcomer trial as we all do sifting through scam systems, newletters, services, and education or at best finding a tidbit here and there and finding a system that works or coming up with one having borrowed elements from others. She also had a lot of great help and advice from some of the best and friendly contributors on BMT. We've all lost money getting the hard earned experience either by losing trades, mistakes, and subscribing to services, systems that don't work. (see the "confess" sticky thread). I would think the end goal as an aspiring retail trader, is to learn to make money off the markets consistently and also make back the capital lost by trading.
I would agree Beth has every right to run her trading education/indicator business. I'm for free market capitalism (Kudlow). However there should also be review sites and oversight organizations such as the BBB to help inform potential customers. I think this review thread is useful in that others can either come away with an opinion either warned or interested to try what ezcolortrading has to offer. Personally I would rather not rent an expensive indicator without some trading record or reputation and so far imo her original thread on BMT, and the site's literature and faq does not inspire confidence for a seasoned student trader. Anyways, it may be possible a crafty trader could make use of the indicators their own way if the rental cost is acceptable; the indicators do look nice and visually pleasing.
Last edited by Cloudy; December 18th, 2011 at 01:39 PM.
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I now dont know about this assessment of 'niceness'. The web persona was 'nice' and it elicited a lot of support based on apparent struggle and distress.
We all know that the presentation of 'easy' trading systems ultimatley ends up with 2 main things for niave customers - loss of money and loss of time; Sometimes huge amounts of both. Vendors also know this - this is the part that pisses me off. This is a misleading act that has real personals costs, personal costs that run a business.
Sure, capitalism easily takes the amoral line - and Fattails has demonstrated this argument nicely in this thread. He is able to hold onto the ideas that vendors are selling dreams without basis and that that vendor cannot be judged on a moral basis simultaneously. I cant do that very well although I understand that it is the reality of trading education. It never ceases to amaze me the level of deception occurring out there and how many people are willing to engage with it.
I dont agree with FT's view that there is a moral equivalence between trading and the actions of a misleading vendor - interesting to unpack that one further though. Maybe we are all morally corrupt but I would not like to think so
I did not say that there is equivalence between trading and the action of a vendor, who is misleading clients on purpose.
I assumed that most vendors - and this does certainly include Beth - do think that they have to sell something of value. I also assumed that most vendors - and also most of traders - suffer from self-delusion. So either
(1) you love to help people with their trading adventure and sell them some tools that they do not need and cannot use,
(2) or you engage in glorious battles as a trader, not willing to see that you take the money from somebody else.
The whole business is more or less degenerated into a branch of the gambling and entertainment industry. Or do you see any other value added than illusions and entertainment?
Do you really believe that you are a liquidity provider, if you open a retail FOREX account?
Last edited by Fat Tails; December 19th, 2011 at 12:31 PM.
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i have to agree with linds on this one even though most of the time i agree with the way fat tails looks at life.it would be different if wgreenie could trade herself,how can you be a trading educator and sell a system when you have no clue what the market is,i understand she was here asking alot of questions but it takes more than a year to learn anything at all about trading.even after 10 years i hardly understand anything about the markets,everyday i run into stuff that i didnt have a clue about the day before.im ashamed that i helped her at all if i knew she would take everything we taught her to go scamm old people i would not had spent one min. helping her...sharky
KILLING THE MARKETS DAILY
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